Friday, September 24, 2021
HomePatriot DispatchesMitt's church shares Judeo-Christian American values. Rev. Wright's does not.

Mitt’s church shares Judeo-Christian American values. Rev. Wright’s does not.

Of cults and Christians

This religious right Southern Baptist Christian gamecock from South Carolina now perched atop his Stone Mountain of Georgia roost was an early supporter of Mitt Romney in 2008 and thinks he would be a great president beginning in 2013.

Yet, Romney’s Mormon Church was founded precisely because its adherents disagreed with Protestants and Catholics on the doctrine of the nature of Christ (among many other doctrines) and specifically rejected being identified as part of traditional “Christianity”.

Moreover, one of the traditional definitions of a “cult”, before its modern day association with extreme and usually violent behavior after the Jim Jones group suicide, is that it adds to the canon. The Book of Mormon adds to the canon of traditional Christianity.

How could a Southern Baptist support a “non-Christian” for President of the United States?

Could it be because Mitt famously declared in 2007 that Jesus Christ is his “personal Savior”? No.

Many Democratic Party candidates make such declarations and attend churches that don’t add to the canon. Yet, many don’t share traditional Judeo-Christian values and/or most don’t favor conservative principles and support such policies based on same that work.

I don’t read hearts. That’s God’s job. I accept the word of Mitt Romney that he responded to John 3:16 like I have. To be a Christian in the sense of sharing eternal life, I accept him as my brother in Christ. One need not agree on theology to be saved. That is an individual matter.

But for an organized church to be lumped in with “Christian” churches, one has to look at the confession of the church and on that score, the Mormon Church is not Christian. And it is only in recent years that some lay Mormons have wanted to be labeled as such. Simply venerating Jesus “in some way” does not make up for adding to the canon and taking a radically different view of the nature of Christ. After all, Islam venerates Jesus in their texts. Must Muslims also be called Christians? Of course not.

I switched to Fred Thompson in 2008 and presently lean to Herman Cain or Rick Perry, whose Christian pastor friend’s recent ruminations on the above issues prompted this column. But my relative problems with Mitt visa vis other GOP candidates has nothing to do with his faith or church. It has to do with issue positions and trust on certain issues. That’s me and there are many like me down here in Dixie.

There are also many Republicans that, all things being equal, would choose a Christian candidate over a Mormon in the primary. But in the general election, they would happily vote for Mitt over a Christian that parked his butt in a pew at the feet of Reverend Jeremiah Hate KKK America Wright for 20 years and that, more significantly, wrecked the economy for the past 4 years.

It is liberals that are bigoted against Mormons and quite frankly, I have heard many conservative Christians often say that Mormons “are better Christians than Christians” based on their good raising of children and moral behavior.

I disagree with Mitt on some issues and don’t like politicians in general. But I respect him as a moral and competent man that would make us proud as the Chief Executive of these United States.

Mike DeVine

Editor – Hillbilly Politics

Co-Founder and Editor – Political Daily

Atlanta Law & Politics columnist –  Examiner.com

“One man with courage makes a majority.” – Andrew Jackson

More DeVine Gamecock rooster crowings at Modern ConservativeUnified Patriots,  and Conservative Outlooks. All Charlotte Observer and Atlanta Journal-Constitution op-eds archived at Townhall.com.


Mike gamecock DeVine
A trial lawyer for two decades in South Carolina; owner of Ati Vista LLC since 2002 now associated with Lupa Law Firm; VP & Counsel for Buddy Allen Roofing & Construction Inc. since 2016 in Atlanta, Georgia; and a freelance writer, DeVine was the conservative voice of the Charlotte Observer from 2006-8 and has been the owner of HillbillyPolitics.com since 2009. www.devinelawvista.com

37 COMMENTS

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37 COMMENTS

  1. Excellent defense of Mitt. I do not like what the Dallas pastor said, but I have no reason to believe that Perry thinks the same way about Mitt. If the current crop of Rs are going to look presidential they are going to need to stick to attacking a policy difference as it applies to being President instead of snipes on what church they attend and how they would have been a different state Governor.

    • I’m sure that Perry, like I, think the same way as the pastor re technical definitions of cult and the confession of Christian churches.

      I just say it better in paragraphs instead of sound bites. I define cult for the ignorant. And I point out to liberals that loathe Christians except when they can divide conservatives of faith that Mormons themselves became Mormons because they disagree with traditional Christian theology.

      The pastor was accurate and I suspect if I could cross-examine him, he would agree with my column.It is not, as the NYT says, an “attack” on the Mormon Church to call it a non-Christian cult if one understands the traditional meaning of the words.

      I seek to teach. Next class times will be posted…smile

    • I followed your link and this is the lead paragraph…

      WASHINGTON — A Texas pastor introduced Rick Perry at a major conference of Christian conservatives here on Friday as “a genuine follower of Jesus Christ” and then walked outside and attacked Mitt Romney’s religion, calling the Mormon Church a cult and stating that Mr. Romney “is not a Christian.”

      The pastor stating that Mr. Romney is not a Christian can be construed as an attacking Mitt.

      • Has Romney ever claimed to be a “Christian”? Plus, the word has several meanings, ie

        The Mormon Church claims specifically to NOT be a part of the traditional Christian Church. That’s why they formed a new church and if some Mormons were to branch off from Mormonism and add new ideas and/or add to the Book of Mormon, the Mormon church would consider them to be a cult.

        So, to be a member of the Mormon Church is not to be a Christian. Whereas to join a Catholic or Baptist church is.

        However, an individual is a Christian is they, as Mitt has done, claims Jesus as his Savior.

        Hope this helps.

        It is not an attack on someone to say they are not a Christian if they don’t claim to be one. I doubt the pastor is aware of Mitt’s statement from 2008 that “Jesus is my personal savior”. If the pastor were confronted with that quote and then said he doesn’t think he is a Christian, then I guess that is “an attack”. So? The question is whether the attack is justified and the conversation would have to be longer than the usual sound bite stuff in the NYT for me to fully evaluate same.

        I would say that if I were the pastor, I would have stated things much differently. In any event, it appears that all of this was said AFTER the pastor introduced Mitt and Mitt’s speech, so that I don’t see that Perry must needs have said anything about it and don’t think he needs to get into what is essentially a theological discussion within the pop culture between lay incompetents.

        If this issue were being discussed by leaders of the Mormon and Protestant churches, no one would be offended. The problems arise thru attempts to boil everything down to one word labels. I tire of it as it seems to dominate blogs.

        God speed…smile

      • Given the detail in the WashPo article

        https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/mormonism-takes-center-stage-at-conservative-event/2011/10/07/gIQA9rX0TL_story.html

        referred to in Hugh Hewitt’s piece (also referenced below), I would add that I disagree with my fellow Southern Baptist on the importance of electing a fellow born again Christian and I think most all Southern Baptists would abandon such a position if the choice is a non-Christian vs a Born Again Christian liberal. Most voters, including Christians, Evangelicals and Southerners, vote based on policies. It is the Democrats that appeal to and attract identity politics voters.

        I would say that I do respect those minority of voters who want the President to be a role model that reflects their desire for saving souls to be enhanced in that way, but simply don’t agree that is an important factor in the admonition to Go Ye and convert.

  2. GC, I pretty much agree 100% with your post. Romney is 3rd or 4th on my list right now, but I would fully support him as the nominee without regard to his religion. I do believe he is a moral man; my problem is with the solidity of his positions.

    I agree that LDS is not a true “Christian” religion. Your explanation for that is dead-on. But the worst of it is indeed the weird origins, what with the Disappearing Golden Tablets and the Magic Decoder Stones of Joseph Smith, along with his violent fight and death. These actually fit more with the violent definition of cult that you refer to.

    But since Smith, the religion took a different turn with Young and those that followed. And you’re right, by and large they live more “Christian” lives than many Christians I know. Several of my closest friends over the years are Mormon, and they are some of the best people I know.

  3. We must all, LDS, Baptist, Catholic, be careful not to fall into a trap here that the Dems are rubbing their hands with glee anticipating we political conservatives from many religious backgrounds (particularly Evangelicals) fall into. Every diversion by conservatives into the “non mainstream” religious beliefs of Mitt Romney, give the Dems now the only real hope they’ve had in the last year that Obama will see a second term as conservatives eat their own and Evangelicals stay home from voting fearing to put Romney in the WH . The fine doctrinal point at the core of the minister’s comments here is, btw, the nature of the Son of God in Christian doctrine. But if we take the minister’s line of reasoning, let’s see – that puts the Mormons and Coptic (Egyptian Eastern Orthodox/Arianist) Christians together as “non-Christians”, and Jeremiah Wright and his church dogma followers as “Christians.” Hmmm…that’s as slippery ecclestiastical slope I’m not going down, no sir.

      • But I would say that while I’m not going to judge the venality of a pastor’s intentions based on less than a full transcript and/or video for technically accurate statements, it is also true that a better judgment would have been to decline to answer the questions on Romney at a political event. A pastor’s main concern is people’s souls however. What Mitt should do is get real technical and state that it is not an attack to say he is not a Christian in the way it is meant.

  4. As a Greek Orthodox/Catholic, looking at all the Protestant sects, but still accepting them as Christian, has tended to be my wont. I understand that the Mormons are seen differently from other Protestant denominations. Not a theologist, so really can’t speak to that. I can speak to the idea that the candidate I choose to vote for must be a moral person (as close I guess to Judaic-Christian precepts that we can get.) IOW, principles that they do and will adhere to.

    Yes, it is two different universes between what Rev. Wright offers, and the Mormon faith. That said, I’ve found the Mormons to be some of the most “Christian” people I’ve ever met, more so than many who stand up and profess they are Christian, but live otherwise.

    There is one area that isn’t clear to me about Romney, the abortion issue. Mormons are anti-abortion, so how come I’ve heard “pro-choice” associated with him? Is this an error?

      • Thanks, azaeroprof. You confirmed what had been filtering in for me over the years about Romney. Now that we’ve come so far, and it really is the conservatives “time,” if we elect a pro-abortionist, well then, the shame is on us.

        I don’t like Romney because I don’t trust him…he has compromised conservative values along the way to get the political positions he has. His Romneycare is the basis for the flat out Socialist Obamacare, and his taking refuge in “states’ rights” is unacceptable to me, for that is only committing tyranny upon the people on a more local level – state government vs federal.

        At heart, Romney is a Democrat, a Socialist one at that.

        • That is not to say, that I won’t vote for him if he is the nominee, but I’ll certainly be concerned that we’ve elected a RINO and there won’t be any hope of undoing any of the laws the progressives have put in place.

          Romney represents expediency to me, a politician too much inside the beltway, and also why the malignant media is encouraging his candidacy.

        • JMHO, I think Romney by his religious and cultural upbringing is truly anti-abortion. NARAL wont be on the invitees list if he is in the WH. He just got caught splitting and re-splitting the hairs on the abortion issue to try to contort into something Massachusetts would vote for in that run against Kennedy for the Senate seat. Now it follows him everywhere and he can’t shake it. On the positive side he has always been a fire eater on our side on the pro-traditional marriage/DOMA issue. Folks, that whole issue is warming up again if you havent noticed and I am totally at ease with him being at the helm if we have to start defending ground there. National defense he is also consistently strong. Romneycare is the real albatross around his neck he wont self remove.

  5. The bottom line for me on this who is or is not a Religious person is simply that I do not believe that God or Jesus or the bible says for ANYONE to sit in judgement of another as a matter of fact, I believe the bible pretty much wants a person to be humble, which is severely lacking in a lot of “Christian” leaders today.

    • If Jesus, Peter or Paul were alive and quoted on this matter and many others or if one reads all of Christ’s sayings on Hell, he and they would be crucified anew. The main mission of pastors is people’s souls, not politics and the sensitivities of bloggers engaged in semantics. That said, the above should give pastor’s pause when they participate in politics and I would say that the pastor should have declined to answer the questions re cult and who is Christian esp immediately after Perry’s speech

  6. Great Dispatch GC, you started out making me question you, then question myself, all while questioning my detestation of Romney and his fellow Democrat Lite RINOs. It made me think. I enjoy thinking about things, unlike so many vociferous idiots these days. I won’t fault the man for being Mormon, only for being a RINO. He represents the Establishment Wing of the GOP and it is their leadership which has brout “The Grand Old Party” to the point of being Democrat Lite by pushing their “Same Big Government Taste, Less Encroaching.” Bullsh*t! Remove religion from the picture, Mitt still needs to take his flip-flopping, book-writing, one horned @ss to the house.

  7. I detest Romney for his dishonesty and political pandering. I doubt I will hold my nose and vote if he is the nominee.

    On the issue of Mormons being Christian on the other hand I have a significant portion of the family that are practicing Mormons who also claim to be Christians. I attended a Mormon church as a youngster and seminary as a teenager.

    Just an FYI on why Mormons are not Christians.
    First, if I said I was a Bruce Lee disciple but weighed 400 pounds, knew no martial arts moves and fled at the first sign of trouble you might suspect I was jerking your chain just a little.
    So if someone says they are a Christian but deny the precepts that Christianity has held and what Christ himself taught I don’t think that it would be out of line to raise an eyebrow.
    1. Mormons deny the trinity. Instead they promote the “godhead” as an office occupied at different times by different entities.
    2. Mormons deny Christ is the only son of god. They absolutely do believe Lucifer is the literal younger brother from the same father and mother as Christ. (you and me also)
    3. On that same line. They believe God is not the ONLY God. There are many other gods including the mother of Christ. Not Mary, but instead, well its to complicated to explain in a bullet point check CARM.org and look in the Mormon section.
    4. They deny Christ’s sacrifice has the power to atone for all sins. It is why Utah offered the firing squad until recently and even offered beheading as an option for some time.
    5. They believe in order for Christ to have an earthly body it was necessary for God (Elohim) to come down and have normal sex with Mary who was then obviously NOT a virgin when Christ was born.
    6. Mormons do not believe in a grace by faith salvation. Instead salvation requires works.
    7. They believe practically everybody goes to heaven. Accordingly, Christ effected a collective salvation similar to Rev Wright’s and Black Liberation Theology’s.
    8. Good Mormons will be Gods.

    The contradiction related to everybody is saved vs Christ’s sacrifice being insufficient is handled by having three different levels of heaven.
    Christ gets almost everybody to level one (murderers and serial adulterers being exceptions. Blood Atonement is required for them). Living the good life gets you to level two and only Joseph Smith will get you to level three.
    Christ lives in level three and is rare seen in levels two and one except when he is slumming.

    Having said all that I do not exclude someone as a Christian for attending a Mormon Church. I am, after all, a John 3:16 guy.
    I do think believing the Mormon doctrines and being a Christian are incompatible.

    I gave that a lot of thought as a late teenager and decided I couldn’t attend a church that taught things so completely contradictory to Christianity. While I might be able to work that out in my own head, my kids as yet unborn, might not.

    azaeroprof, took me awhile to decode the handle, being a pilot helped.
    Two things Young taught that might raise an eyebrow for you.
    First he taught that if the Mormon Church ever allowed blacks (The descendants of Cain) to have the priesthood, other Mormons would know the Church had fallen into Apostasy. Happened in 1978.
    Second, he believed Quaker style pilgrims lived on the far side of the moon. This was actually proven to be true in 1969. Somebody had to hold the camera as Neil descended the ladder. 🙂

    The cult question can be answered empirically by asking what is the definition of a cult?
    From Websters:
    (2) : a system of religious beliefs and ritual; also : its body of adherents
    (3) : a religion regarded as unorthodox or spurious; also : its body of adherents
    (5) [a] : great devotion to a person, idea, object, movement, or work (as a film or book); especially : such devotion regarded as a literary or intellectual fad
    [b] : the object of such devotion
    [c] : a usually small group of people characterized by such devotion

    So first, if Christ is not the Son of God, then Christianity is just a cult.
    Second, the same holds true for Mormonism. If Joseph Smith is not a true prophet of God, if the Book of Mormon is not a divine revelation, then the LDS church is a cult.

    • Most theologians have always agreed, Rogue. But as to the individual soul, as every Baptist v Roman Catholic agree to decide, walking away with broken noses, if one is Irish, God will decide, not them.

      Every day, I can vote for a faux-Christian who lives as one, and even get excited about it, versus a faux American, faux democrat (little d) who professes only the teachings of Karl marx. It’s a no-brainer for me.

      • I would generally agree with you.

        I don’t think Romney fits. He really has practically nothing to set him apart from Obama except today he says he is a pro-life small government conservative. I don’t believe the words coming out of his mouth anymore than the words on Obama’s teleprompTer.
        Before you jump on it, yes he has more experience in business, but even that is primarily of the type that helped create the mess. Big business, leveraged buyouts, high finance, etc. When did he run a mom and pop style business?

        I see Obama as somebody who does a very bad job pretending he is not a big government socialist and Romney as somebody gifted enough to pull it off. Still an act though.

        One of the biggest problems the Republican Party has today is having a reasonable degree of party purity without getting carried away.

        I could support most of the Republicans if nominated. Romney is just not one of that group. I can’t see electing a guy that will give legitimacy to the statement “they are all alike.”

    • Rogue this is neither the right forum nor time for a discussion of points of any church’s doctrine but suffice it here to say, there are a lot of misstatements or mischaracterizations in your points. You failed to allow what any religion that has been around for awhile, and is in this particular case the fourth largest denomination in the US, the fair difference between what is taught in that church as hard doctrine vs. what has been speculation by theologians within that faith, or even musings made in prior centuries by same. Angels dancing on the head of a pin debates comes to mind with the Catholic scholastics, for example. Brigham Young himself said, “when I say ‘thus saith the Lord’ you may rely on it as doctrine, but when I speculate, it is (only) Brignam Young the man speaking.”(paraphrasing) And he was very careful to invoke the former – save upon very basic, yes Christian, doctrine. There are many seemingly odd things
      in every religion with some age and history on it, that are best explained in context – not by a set up and slam job of other denominations some of which, frankly, are losing membership and feel the need to go in attack mode these days against other denominations.

      • CJack I figured the topic was germane.

        It wasn’t specifically an attack on Mormonism.
        It was simply an explanation of differences that seem to contradict the idea that Mormonism is simply a flavor of Christianity.

        I don’t think I misstated anything. If you think I did I would rather you clarified which point. It gives me a chance to either re-verify or reconsider the particular point.

        The other reason for clarifying which points you believe faulty is because I actually thought aside from my being a little snarky few Mormons would object to the points as being a misrepresentation or mis-characterization.

        Accordingly, if I sat down and detailed several points on why Buddhism isn’t a variety of Islam we needn’t assume I am attacking either.

        It has become vogue for people inside and outside the LDS church to refer to it as a Christian denomination. I have seen it from both sides and the comparison seems very stretched to me.

        It doesn’t bug me that people want to be Mormons, it bugs me they want it both ways.

        Whatever the conclusion is to the question, people obviously have a right to choose whichever church they please.

        I’ll also concede there is dirty laundry all over the place.

  1. Excellent defense of Mitt. I do not like what the Dallas pastor said, but I have no reason to believe that Perry thinks the same way about Mitt. If the current crop of Rs are going to look presidential they are going to need to stick to attacking a policy difference as it applies to being President instead of snipes on what church they attend and how they would have been a different state Governor.

    • I’m sure that Perry, like I, think the same way as the pastor re technical definitions of cult and the confession of Christian churches.

      I just say it better in paragraphs instead of sound bites. I define cult for the ignorant. And I point out to liberals that loathe Christians except when they can divide conservatives of faith that Mormons themselves became Mormons because they disagree with traditional Christian theology.

      The pastor was accurate and I suspect if I could cross-examine him, he would agree with my column.It is not, as the NYT says, an “attack” on the Mormon Church to call it a non-Christian cult if one understands the traditional meaning of the words.

      I seek to teach. Next class times will be posted…smile

    • I followed your link and this is the lead paragraph…

      WASHINGTON — A Texas pastor introduced Rick Perry at a major conference of Christian conservatives here on Friday as “a genuine follower of Jesus Christ” and then walked outside and attacked Mitt Romney’s religion, calling the Mormon Church a cult and stating that Mr. Romney “is not a Christian.”

      The pastor stating that Mr. Romney is not a Christian can be construed as an attacking Mitt.

      • Has Romney ever claimed to be a “Christian”? Plus, the word has several meanings, ie

        The Mormon Church claims specifically to NOT be a part of the traditional Christian Church. That’s why they formed a new church and if some Mormons were to branch off from Mormonism and add new ideas and/or add to the Book of Mormon, the Mormon church would consider them to be a cult.

        So, to be a member of the Mormon Church is not to be a Christian. Whereas to join a Catholic or Baptist church is.

        However, an individual is a Christian is they, as Mitt has done, claims Jesus as his Savior.

        Hope this helps.

        It is not an attack on someone to say they are not a Christian if they don’t claim to be one. I doubt the pastor is aware of Mitt’s statement from 2008 that “Jesus is my personal savior”. If the pastor were confronted with that quote and then said he doesn’t think he is a Christian, then I guess that is “an attack”. So? The question is whether the attack is justified and the conversation would have to be longer than the usual sound bite stuff in the NYT for me to fully evaluate same.

        I would say that if I were the pastor, I would have stated things much differently. In any event, it appears that all of this was said AFTER the pastor introduced Mitt and Mitt’s speech, so that I don’t see that Perry must needs have said anything about it and don’t think he needs to get into what is essentially a theological discussion within the pop culture between lay incompetents.

        If this issue were being discussed by leaders of the Mormon and Protestant churches, no one would be offended. The problems arise thru attempts to boil everything down to one word labels. I tire of it as it seems to dominate blogs.

        God speed…smile

      • Given the detail in the WashPo article

        https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/mormonism-takes-center-stage-at-conservative-event/2011/10/07/gIQA9rX0TL_story.html

        referred to in Hugh Hewitt’s piece (also referenced below), I would add that I disagree with my fellow Southern Baptist on the importance of electing a fellow born again Christian and I think most all Southern Baptists would abandon such a position if the choice is a non-Christian vs a Born Again Christian liberal. Most voters, including Christians, Evangelicals and Southerners, vote based on policies. It is the Democrats that appeal to and attract identity politics voters.

        I would say that I do respect those minority of voters who want the President to be a role model that reflects their desire for saving souls to be enhanced in that way, but simply don’t agree that is an important factor in the admonition to Go Ye and convert.

  2. GC, I pretty much agree 100% with your post. Romney is 3rd or 4th on my list right now, but I would fully support him as the nominee without regard to his religion. I do believe he is a moral man; my problem is with the solidity of his positions.

    I agree that LDS is not a true “Christian” religion. Your explanation for that is dead-on. But the worst of it is indeed the weird origins, what with the Disappearing Golden Tablets and the Magic Decoder Stones of Joseph Smith, along with his violent fight and death. These actually fit more with the violent definition of cult that you refer to.

    But since Smith, the religion took a different turn with Young and those that followed. And you’re right, by and large they live more “Christian” lives than many Christians I know. Several of my closest friends over the years are Mormon, and they are some of the best people I know.

  3. We must all, LDS, Baptist, Catholic, be careful not to fall into a trap here that the Dems are rubbing their hands with glee anticipating we political conservatives from many religious backgrounds (particularly Evangelicals) fall into. Every diversion by conservatives into the “non mainstream” religious beliefs of Mitt Romney, give the Dems now the only real hope they’ve had in the last year that Obama will see a second term as conservatives eat their own and Evangelicals stay home from voting fearing to put Romney in the WH . The fine doctrinal point at the core of the minister’s comments here is, btw, the nature of the Son of God in Christian doctrine. But if we take the minister’s line of reasoning, let’s see – that puts the Mormons and Coptic (Egyptian Eastern Orthodox/Arianist) Christians together as “non-Christians”, and Jeremiah Wright and his church dogma followers as “Christians.” Hmmm…that’s as slippery ecclestiastical slope I’m not going down, no sir.

      • But I would say that while I’m not going to judge the venality of a pastor’s intentions based on less than a full transcript and/or video for technically accurate statements, it is also true that a better judgment would have been to decline to answer the questions on Romney at a political event. A pastor’s main concern is people’s souls however. What Mitt should do is get real technical and state that it is not an attack to say he is not a Christian in the way it is meant.

  4. As a Greek Orthodox/Catholic, looking at all the Protestant sects, but still accepting them as Christian, has tended to be my wont. I understand that the Mormons are seen differently from other Protestant denominations. Not a theologist, so really can’t speak to that. I can speak to the idea that the candidate I choose to vote for must be a moral person (as close I guess to Judaic-Christian precepts that we can get.) IOW, principles that they do and will adhere to.

    Yes, it is two different universes between what Rev. Wright offers, and the Mormon faith. That said, I’ve found the Mormons to be some of the most “Christian” people I’ve ever met, more so than many who stand up and profess they are Christian, but live otherwise.

    There is one area that isn’t clear to me about Romney, the abortion issue. Mormons are anti-abortion, so how come I’ve heard “pro-choice” associated with him? Is this an error?

      • Thanks, azaeroprof. You confirmed what had been filtering in for me over the years about Romney. Now that we’ve come so far, and it really is the conservatives “time,” if we elect a pro-abortionist, well then, the shame is on us.

        I don’t like Romney because I don’t trust him…he has compromised conservative values along the way to get the political positions he has. His Romneycare is the basis for the flat out Socialist Obamacare, and his taking refuge in “states’ rights” is unacceptable to me, for that is only committing tyranny upon the people on a more local level – state government vs federal.

        At heart, Romney is a Democrat, a Socialist one at that.

        • That is not to say, that I won’t vote for him if he is the nominee, but I’ll certainly be concerned that we’ve elected a RINO and there won’t be any hope of undoing any of the laws the progressives have put in place.

          Romney represents expediency to me, a politician too much inside the beltway, and also why the malignant media is encouraging his candidacy.

        • JMHO, I think Romney by his religious and cultural upbringing is truly anti-abortion. NARAL wont be on the invitees list if he is in the WH. He just got caught splitting and re-splitting the hairs on the abortion issue to try to contort into something Massachusetts would vote for in that run against Kennedy for the Senate seat. Now it follows him everywhere and he can’t shake it. On the positive side he has always been a fire eater on our side on the pro-traditional marriage/DOMA issue. Folks, that whole issue is warming up again if you havent noticed and I am totally at ease with him being at the helm if we have to start defending ground there. National defense he is also consistently strong. Romneycare is the real albatross around his neck he wont self remove.

  5. The bottom line for me on this who is or is not a Religious person is simply that I do not believe that God or Jesus or the bible says for ANYONE to sit in judgement of another as a matter of fact, I believe the bible pretty much wants a person to be humble, which is severely lacking in a lot of “Christian” leaders today.

    • If Jesus, Peter or Paul were alive and quoted on this matter and many others or if one reads all of Christ’s sayings on Hell, he and they would be crucified anew. The main mission of pastors is people’s souls, not politics and the sensitivities of bloggers engaged in semantics. That said, the above should give pastor’s pause when they participate in politics and I would say that the pastor should have declined to answer the questions re cult and who is Christian esp immediately after Perry’s speech

  6. Great Dispatch GC, you started out making me question you, then question myself, all while questioning my detestation of Romney and his fellow Democrat Lite RINOs. It made me think. I enjoy thinking about things, unlike so many vociferous idiots these days. I won’t fault the man for being Mormon, only for being a RINO. He represents the Establishment Wing of the GOP and it is their leadership which has brout “The Grand Old Party” to the point of being Democrat Lite by pushing their “Same Big Government Taste, Less Encroaching.” Bullsh*t! Remove religion from the picture, Mitt still needs to take his flip-flopping, book-writing, one horned @ss to the house.

  7. I detest Romney for his dishonesty and political pandering. I doubt I will hold my nose and vote if he is the nominee.

    On the issue of Mormons being Christian on the other hand I have a significant portion of the family that are practicing Mormons who also claim to be Christians. I attended a Mormon church as a youngster and seminary as a teenager.

    Just an FYI on why Mormons are not Christians.
    First, if I said I was a Bruce Lee disciple but weighed 400 pounds, knew no martial arts moves and fled at the first sign of trouble you might suspect I was jerking your chain just a little.
    So if someone says they are a Christian but deny the precepts that Christianity has held and what Christ himself taught I don’t think that it would be out of line to raise an eyebrow.
    1. Mormons deny the trinity. Instead they promote the “godhead” as an office occupied at different times by different entities.
    2. Mormons deny Christ is the only son of god. They absolutely do believe Lucifer is the literal younger brother from the same father and mother as Christ. (you and me also)
    3. On that same line. They believe God is not the ONLY God. There are many other gods including the mother of Christ. Not Mary, but instead, well its to complicated to explain in a bullet point check CARM.org and look in the Mormon section.
    4. They deny Christ’s sacrifice has the power to atone for all sins. It is why Utah offered the firing squad until recently and even offered beheading as an option for some time.
    5. They believe in order for Christ to have an earthly body it was necessary for God (Elohim) to come down and have normal sex with Mary who was then obviously NOT a virgin when Christ was born.
    6. Mormons do not believe in a grace by faith salvation. Instead salvation requires works.
    7. They believe practically everybody goes to heaven. Accordingly, Christ effected a collective salvation similar to Rev Wright’s and Black Liberation Theology’s.
    8. Good Mormons will be Gods.

    The contradiction related to everybody is saved vs Christ’s sacrifice being insufficient is handled by having three different levels of heaven.
    Christ gets almost everybody to level one (murderers and serial adulterers being exceptions. Blood Atonement is required for them). Living the good life gets you to level two and only Joseph Smith will get you to level three.
    Christ lives in level three and is rare seen in levels two and one except when he is slumming.

    Having said all that I do not exclude someone as a Christian for attending a Mormon Church. I am, after all, a John 3:16 guy.
    I do think believing the Mormon doctrines and being a Christian are incompatible.

    I gave that a lot of thought as a late teenager and decided I couldn’t attend a church that taught things so completely contradictory to Christianity. While I might be able to work that out in my own head, my kids as yet unborn, might not.

    azaeroprof, took me awhile to decode the handle, being a pilot helped.
    Two things Young taught that might raise an eyebrow for you.
    First he taught that if the Mormon Church ever allowed blacks (The descendants of Cain) to have the priesthood, other Mormons would know the Church had fallen into Apostasy. Happened in 1978.
    Second, he believed Quaker style pilgrims lived on the far side of the moon. This was actually proven to be true in 1969. Somebody had to hold the camera as Neil descended the ladder. 🙂

    The cult question can be answered empirically by asking what is the definition of a cult?
    From Websters:
    (2) : a system of religious beliefs and ritual; also : its body of adherents
    (3) : a religion regarded as unorthodox or spurious; also : its body of adherents
    (5) [a] : great devotion to a person, idea, object, movement, or work (as a film or book); especially : such devotion regarded as a literary or intellectual fad
    [b] : the object of such devotion
    [c] : a usually small group of people characterized by such devotion

    So first, if Christ is not the Son of God, then Christianity is just a cult.
    Second, the same holds true for Mormonism. If Joseph Smith is not a true prophet of God, if the Book of Mormon is not a divine revelation, then the LDS church is a cult.

    • Most theologians have always agreed, Rogue. But as to the individual soul, as every Baptist v Roman Catholic agree to decide, walking away with broken noses, if one is Irish, God will decide, not them.

      Every day, I can vote for a faux-Christian who lives as one, and even get excited about it, versus a faux American, faux democrat (little d) who professes only the teachings of Karl marx. It’s a no-brainer for me.

      • I would generally agree with you.

        I don’t think Romney fits. He really has practically nothing to set him apart from Obama except today he says he is a pro-life small government conservative. I don’t believe the words coming out of his mouth anymore than the words on Obama’s teleprompTer.
        Before you jump on it, yes he has more experience in business, but even that is primarily of the type that helped create the mess. Big business, leveraged buyouts, high finance, etc. When did he run a mom and pop style business?

        I see Obama as somebody who does a very bad job pretending he is not a big government socialist and Romney as somebody gifted enough to pull it off. Still an act though.

        One of the biggest problems the Republican Party has today is having a reasonable degree of party purity without getting carried away.

        I could support most of the Republicans if nominated. Romney is just not one of that group. I can’t see electing a guy that will give legitimacy to the statement “they are all alike.”

    • Rogue this is neither the right forum nor time for a discussion of points of any church’s doctrine but suffice it here to say, there are a lot of misstatements or mischaracterizations in your points. You failed to allow what any religion that has been around for awhile, and is in this particular case the fourth largest denomination in the US, the fair difference between what is taught in that church as hard doctrine vs. what has been speculation by theologians within that faith, or even musings made in prior centuries by same. Angels dancing on the head of a pin debates comes to mind with the Catholic scholastics, for example. Brigham Young himself said, “when I say ‘thus saith the Lord’ you may rely on it as doctrine, but when I speculate, it is (only) Brignam Young the man speaking.”(paraphrasing) And he was very careful to invoke the former – save upon very basic, yes Christian, doctrine. There are many seemingly odd things
      in every religion with some age and history on it, that are best explained in context – not by a set up and slam job of other denominations some of which, frankly, are losing membership and feel the need to go in attack mode these days against other denominations.

      • CJack I figured the topic was germane.

        It wasn’t specifically an attack on Mormonism.
        It was simply an explanation of differences that seem to contradict the idea that Mormonism is simply a flavor of Christianity.

        I don’t think I misstated anything. If you think I did I would rather you clarified which point. It gives me a chance to either re-verify or reconsider the particular point.

        The other reason for clarifying which points you believe faulty is because I actually thought aside from my being a little snarky few Mormons would object to the points as being a misrepresentation or mis-characterization.

        Accordingly, if I sat down and detailed several points on why Buddhism isn’t a variety of Islam we needn’t assume I am attacking either.

        It has become vogue for people inside and outside the LDS church to refer to it as a Christian denomination. I have seen it from both sides and the comparison seems very stretched to me.

        It doesn’t bug me that people want to be Mormons, it bugs me they want it both ways.

        Whatever the conclusion is to the question, people obviously have a right to choose whichever church they please.

        I’ll also concede there is dirty laundry all over the place.

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